Tuesday, January 20, 2009

more lies and hatred from neurodiversity

Well it seems once again some hatemongers and dishonest people from the ND movement are using me as a punching bag to use the Freudian defense mechanism of displacement due to their own hatred of themselves. Out of the clear blue sky someone mentioned me as someone who is a collaborator and traitor of some sort and added the nice personal insult that I was somehow not clever enough to make money at what I was doing unlike someone else who the post was originally about, but this person who, i did not know about until the other day seems to be thoroughly intoxicated with hatred and bitterness:

Totally agree with that, and suggest that the SECOND most notorious collaborator is Jonathon Mitchell, who fortunately, doesn't have the wit to make any money at selling out as MJC has.

This person goes on with more of a barrage of insults and an outright lie:

You're "number two" all right, a whole pile of it!
The "Quisling" part comes in because he's best buds with JBJr and Doherty, and for his anti-autistic comments on LB/RB.

AND, the mere fact that he's inept and ineffective doesn't take anything away from his status as a traitor.

And then there is the topper of not only stooping to bringing my mother into the mix but stating something that is an outright deliberate lie and fabrication on his part:

He admitted on his blog that he learned his attitude about autism being a "horrible tragedy" at his mother's knee, and refuses to consider any other point of view.

Before going on with the rest of the blog post. Let me say this now, this is an outright lie on clay adam's part. I never admitted on my blog that I learned about autism being a horrible tragedy from my mother. This person who calls themselves Ivar one time asked about my mother and her attitudes. I sort of knew what he was leading up to and should have rejected this comment but I chose to take the moral high road and answer him telling him my mother was still alive and had a similar attitude about a cure that I did. Then Ivar made a comment which I rejected stating that I had learned this from my mother's knee. I never in any way shape or form said that I had learned any of this from my parents. Clay Adams is an out and out liar. But many in the ND movement are not above the fray of ethical or honest behavior it would seem. I learned to hate autism and wish for a cure, from having to suffer from years of rejection, years of having to be addicted to self-stimulatory behaviors and not being able to attend regular school or make a living or have any sort of a near normal life that many if not most of the neurodiversity proponents enjoy and take for granted and a multitude of other disabilities and problems that are too lengthy to mention in this already long post.

Adams then goes on to imply that anyone who disagrees with the neurodiversity philosophy is not welcome to comment about it on another blog other than their own, engaging in the well known censorship that neurodiversity has seemed to advocate since its inception:

Jon M. doesn't just stay on his blog, but takes it on the road to infest other people's blogs.

Then, David Andrews, someone who says they are autistic and has a masters degree in educational psychology somehow weighs in on my character Andrews main claim to fame is helping to encourage Simon Baron Cohen write that absolutely inane article claiming that high functioning autism should not be considered a disability. Andrews also seems to enjoy engaging in abusive insults:

I get the feeling that Jon Mitchell hasn't really learned much from his degree studies. Nor from life, really. Like... so he wanted to go into brain research but his autism has kept him from that? BOLLOCKS!Other people's reaction to the diagnosis, or his own behaviour (regardless of the autism), may have done. His unwillingness to learn, too. They fuck your chances of getting on pretty badly. Other people's prejudices are one of the biggest pbstacles for autistics or any other 'differents'. Pity he can't see that... I guess he didn't listen too well in his social psychology lectures.

I in turn made the correct response that andrews just happened to decide he was autistic well into adulthood, never went to special schools, was able to get married and never had problems of the magnitude that I have had in my life so he can't possibly judge me, he responded with all of these great words of wisdom:

Oh dear, Jonny boy, what an ignorant assuming piece of shit you really are, eh?"David, it does not matter whether i listened in my social psych classes or not." Yes, it does. You'd know more about the influence of other people's prejudices and their effects on the everyday lives of those subjected to them. Dipshit."I am not an M.ED. pending or distinguished, but I have learned about autism from the inside out, the real world, unlike you, who just learned from books," Learned from real life, inside out. There sems to have been as suspicion of autism when I was younger, but not much was done about it. Very nearly ended up in a special school but - if you are a product of special education - I'm glad I didn't fucking go! LoL!

I know more about autism than you'll ever fucking know, tosspot! LoL And yes, I was able to get married... not all that rare, actually! And I was diagnosed by two psychiatrists in the UK as an adult back in 1997. Get your fucking facts straight, and contend with being an idiot. My god... this is why you only have a Bachelor's degree.Now we know the REAL Jonathan Mitchell, don't we? Hates anyone on the spectrum who did a shitload better than he feels he did.Self-sorrowing arsehole.

i think all you deserve is insults when you can't get your bloody facts right. and i can tell you now, you were way out of bloody line.pity you didn't learn to get your facts right when you did your degree. plus, on insults and abuse, you're nobody to talk.so STFU.no wonder you can't get work.it ends here, this does.

One has to wonder about what "latrine lips" Andrews says about the suspicion of autism. Why wasn't anything done? Perhaps it was because his autism was nowhere nearly as severe as mine. If he never had to go to special ed schools, he was able to get married and have a daughter. He could not possibly know what life is like for a typical autistic person. He knows nothing about autism from the inside out. As far as my only getting a bachelors, then according to Andrews convoluted logic, then why was he only able to get a masters and not a doctorate. Something must be terribly wrong with him also. He has to personally attack me, the fact that I am currently unemployed and all of the other things and Clay Adams has to bring my mother into the mix and intentionally lie about what I said on my blog. Andrews parents certainly would have done something if his autism was significant enough to warrant a diagnosis when he was younger which he did not receive. Andrews by his own admission was not diagnosed until 1997 which would have been when he was over 30. So I stand by my statement that the problems of autistics are really an abstraction to him. Furthermore, as far as I can tell Andrews was diagnosed with asperger's not autism, whereas I had a speech delay as a child so his condition is really different from mine and the others who have autism.

If I am as truly inept and ineffective as Clay Adams claims, then I wonder why I managed to get noticed by him and clearly get under his skin so much. Perhaps I have been effective and adept in putting at least one misguided member of the ND movement in their place who has to respond with such blatantly hostility and lies about what I said in my blog.

I truly feel sorry for Clay Adams and David Andrews. I feel sorry for Andrews' daughter that she has a father who would stoop to such nastiness and obscene language. I feel sorry for any potential client/patient in Finland that Andrews would see.

The entire exchange can be read here

I am thankful though, in my blogging to expose neurodiversity as the terrible philosophy that it is that these two individuals can allow us to judge the entire ND movement by the delightful company they keep.

30 comments:

Foresam said...

Jonathan,
You nailed the truth about all of these ND con artists...none of them can stand up to any criticism.
Andrews was too stupid to finish school at a normal age so he kept boasting about having a pending BA until the college finally got sick of him and gave him a degree out of sympathy.
Clay Adams is probably in the early stages of Alzheimer's which may excuse his inappropriate behavior. We should pray for him.

Clay said...

You said:

"Let me say this now, this is an outright lie on clay adam's part. I never admitted on my blog that I learned about autism being a horrible tragedy from my mother."


Here is the dialogue:
Ivar said...

Hi Jonathon,

If I may ask, is your mother still alive? What was she like, while you were growing up, and what was her attitude towards autism?

December 25, 2008 11:01 AM
Blogger jonathan said...

yes, Ivar, my mom is still living, she was a nice mother and her attitude towards autism was like mine, that it is a horrible disability that needs to be cured. She also tried to get help for my perceptual motor problems with tutoring and sent me to some special education schools and looked for medications or other treatments that could alleviate my problems but there were none that did any good.

December 25, 2008 9:20 PM

Jonathon, which of you was older, you or your mother? Who was in the authoritative position? Now who grew up believing he was defective, because HE LEARNED IT FROM HIS MOTHER??? There is no other explanation, you adopted HER attitude about autism, not "her attitude was similar to yours".

Just imagine what you would have been like, if you had been raised by, say, jypsy, who loves her sons NO MATTER WHAT, and didn't teach them to hate themselves.

jonathan said...

Clay, thanks for printing that out, it shows what a liar you are, anyone with any lick of intelligence (which you clearly don't have) can see that I never acknowledged I learned this attitude from my mother, I came to it on my own. The fact you would deliberately lie and bring my mother into the mix and say insulting things about her shows what a low person you are. I told Jypsy one time that I suspected that if there were a cure I suspected that she and her son would be at the front of the line for it, but as you correctly state( the only thing you have gotten right in this dialogue of ours) is that a cure probably won't happen anytime in the forseeable future.


Thanks for posting here, you are only showing what a dishonest lowlife you are.

jonathan said...

Clay I showed you some charity and rejected your second comment. You have it on ABFH blog anyhow. You are only making yourself look like a jackass now that I proved that you are a liar, it might be in your best interest to stop making a fool of yourself.

And once again, if what you say about parents having such a great influence on a child's personality, philosophy and goals. This must speak very lowly of your parents that they would raise an offspring who would turn out as empty-headed and boorish as you are.

Foresam said...

I think Clay suffers from the same congenital problem as Phil Gluyas, plain old stupidity. You have to be pretty dumb to believe anything that is said by Neuroinsanity.

jonathan said...

Yes, John, I agree, no rational person would believe in neurodiversity. Assuming Clay Adams has any intelligence whatsoever it seems strange that he would publically make this bogus claim that I stated that I learned to hate autism at my mother's knee, when the comment Ivar made and my answer to him were a matter of public record and then he would print out the own damning evidence refuting his own argument, go figure.

Autism Reality NB said...

Jonathan

You know you are having an impact when you elicit such hostile reactions.

SM69 said...

Well that's a big argument- I have never encountered as much argument elsewhere than amongst people with HFA/AS. At times it’s very draining and tiring and I am not sure if it is wise of me to even attempt to comment here.

The way I have taken these arguments when addressed to me is to systematically divide by at least a factor 10 the anger, hatred, destructiveness that seem to be attached to the comments in order to avoid over reacting in matching level to their intensity (I am not saying that I have successfully managed to not over react though, but I am learning as I go along). In my opinion, people with autism, present with gating issues. There is no middle road, it’s either good or it’s bad, there are not a great deal of grays. Whilst most NT people on a scale of 1-10 would be able to express all level of emotions gradually to level 10, I have found that very commonly an autistic person will pass from 2 to 10 with no step in between. I feel that to answer to this at level 10 is not very helpful, actually it is destructive. I see what you are reporting here is that that sort of argument and irrationality is almost always attached to a level 10,being dsiplsy by a NT or ASD person, and you are dealing with it just now.

Another important aspect I have observed when relating to someone with autism, is that it’s often easier, as if the need for conversation was clearer, when the series of exchanges contains anger, attacks and provocation. I assume this is because the motivation to answer are higher, the emotions attached being the drive. It seems to be much more difficult for a person with autism to dialogue when a more neutral mutual free flow around a topic unrelated to the person is needed, like discussing an academic subject, say exploring the meaning of a play for example. I think everyone with autism wants to communicate and relate, I am pretty certain of this, but know everyone knows how to. Sometimes, it’s actually easier to argue. Send a stinker on a blog and get all these answers and you feel suddenly important, for one you upset everyone, for two, you appear as if you relate, and the person does relate, but this is hard work, and very destructive.

I don’t think the problem is about the Neuro-diversity per se, we should encourage and welcome neuro-diversity in my opinion, and everyone is free to have an opinion on what matter to them most. But one other aspect attached with autism as you probably know, is that self-centered attitude. People tend to focus on themselves, not on someone else who happened to share the same diagnosis, but actually does not have the same difficulties or needs. What you view as important to you is valid for you and people like yourself but it might not be for other autistics who have managed to get mainstream education, hold a job, got married etc, they are different and have different needs, even if fundamentally they have the same issues, you see what I mean right?. In my view the diagnosis of autism solely based on 3 main behavioural characteristics is very limited, because it regroups people who are very different, who require different understanding and different answers. People with autism yes should speak for other autistics, but can they do something else than arguing? Can they reach a consensus on behalf of a group and not just about themselves or their views? I think that is a big challenge.

I am not here to be critical or negative of autism, I love people with autism, but one has also to be realistic and not sentimental about this. You are dealing exactly with the consequences of what autism is about, I don’t even think there is anything personal about this, this is autism for you, served on a nice silver tray. And you'll have this again and again and again, but hopefully you'll recognise the true nature of the attacks when they come next and can relax about them. Have a drink, or a smoke or what ever relaxes you instead. Cheers.

jonathan said...

I don’t think the problem is about the Neuro-diversity per se, we should encourage and welcome neuro-diversity in my opinion

I welcome neurodiversity about as much as poison ivy or hemorrhoids.
As American television personality Diane Sawyer put it so eloquently,neurodiversity is just a beautiful way of justifying heartbreak.


hopefully you'll recognise the true nature of the attacks when they come next and can relax about them. Have a drink, or a smoke or what ever relaxes you instead. Cheers.

The true nature of the attacks are nothing but hatred, bigotry and bitterness generated by heartbreak. If you think I should relax about people calling me a liar, taking cheap shots at my disability, deliberately fabricating what I say and even insulting my parents, that is your problem, not mine.

Alyric said...

"As American television personality Diane Sawyer put it so eloquently,neurodiversity is just a beautiful way of justifying heartbreak."

That's not true. She said it about acceptance and for her that wasn't true because in order to make that statement she had to gloss right over Ari's point that acceptance didn't mean not making progess. Two lies won't get you closer to the truth.

Careful with the company you keep - the comments list is headed by JBest jr and Doherty's in there as well. Not good if you think that sort of thing rubs off and you said as much in your hate article.

jonathan said...

As is typical, Ali, you get it wrong again. She said it about neurodiversity, you are also full of baloney as far as Ari's statement went. It was not about acceptance versus progress it was cure versus progress when Ari was asked by the interviewer what should be done about autistics who can't speak, etc. it was a complete copout on the part of a 20-year-old kid with no life experience whatsoever.


Nothing wrong with keeping company with Harold Doherty, though the only company I keep with him is just occasionally posting in his blog and him posting here and giving me a link which I never asked him to give me. Though he and I disagree on ABA and other issues, he is a decent well-intentioned man who only wants the best for his son, whose disability is far more severe than yours (assuming you are in fact on the autistic spectrum) and he engages in polite and civil discourse when discussing things on blogs (unlike yourself).

Considering how abusive you have been to me, and to other people in the past, I dont think you should be criticizing John Best. There is an old saying about throwing stones in a house made of fragile glass.

I have never written any hate articles. It is you and the rest of the ND movement that promotes hatred and bigotry and intolerance.

Foresam said...

Alyric,
I wouldn't advise Jonathan to have anything to do with the likes of you, not even to get a quick hummer.

Alyric said...

Sawyer's comment was a direct response to Kristina's acceptance leading to hope yada yada. The fact that you wanted it to be about cure doesn't change anything.

jonathan said...

No, watch the video again, alyric which is on the internet somewhere. You will see that the interviewer (i forgot her name) asks Ari what should be done about autistics who can't speak etc. Ari responds with the typical ND copout that being anti-cure does not mean anti-progress. So far if there is a way to get a nonverbal autistic to speak and ND has a solution without curing the child, they certainly have not shown it to anyone.

After the interview the topic of neurodiversity in general was discussed, not specifically Kristina's response and then Sawyer made her profound statements. Sawyer is a journalist with a ton of experience going back to decades before Ari was conceived. She can see a snow job and a copout when she hears one, so she did not gloss over Ari's statements.

The facts are there no matter how much phoney baloney spin you want to put on them.

Foresam said...

I have the interview on my blog. "anti cure does not mean anti progress" were the words Ne'eman used. At the end Sawyer made a comment and had a look on her face that said they were all nuts.

Ender said...

A nonverbal child to speak... does anyone else notice the problem there. But lets overlook that problem and ask you about DJ Sarvese or the like. He has a book deal for crying out loud. Do you really think he has that much trouble speaking? Yet by most definations he would be almost as severely autistic as Sam Best. His parents are ND though.

jonathan said...

I really don't know, Bryan, don't know who that is.

jonathan said...

Oh, sorry, Bryan, though I don't know who you are referring to, I think I get the point of your post. You are saying that having a severely autistic child does not necessarily preclude someone from believing in ND. Well I think I have an explaination for what you are saying. You might be interested in reading my posts both on autism's gadfly and in my prior blog, Jonathan's journal that address that issue.

I write about psychologic defense mechanisms such as reaction formation and denial which give the genesis to neurodiversity and that explains how some parents of severely autistic children might embrace ND. I can't give you the exact links, but if you look on here and in my journal on my Jonathan's stories web page you will probably be able to find them.

If I remember correctly, you are going to school pursuing a masters in special ed. Well, then it is possible you have studied freudian psychology, so you would be familiar with defense mechanisms such as reaction formation and how they could compel someone to become a member of the ND crowd.

Ender said...

Actually I was talking about a kid who is much more successful in the world then Sam will ever be, with just as severe of autism, despite his parents believing in ND and never even daring to try chelation. That sounds a lot better to me. Little bit about him here, http://www.reasonable-people.com/writings.html

Ender said...

P.S. I think he rights pretty damn good for a middle schooler, granted he wouldn't normally get a writing contract, but certainly hes doing a lot better the Sam is right now. And fyi, I have met him, he screams (sometimes literally) low functioning autistic in every last single way.

jonathan said...

P.S. I think he rights pretty damn good for a middle schooler

Perhaps you should work on your grammar, it is writes, not rights.

I don't understand how he could be as severe as John Best's son and do better than he is, sounds like an oxymoron to me. But I won't comment any further and just let Best answer you if he wants to. I know that he reads this blog on a regular basis and comments here not infrequently and he may have a response to your comment since it seems to be in large part about his son. Still not quite sure what your point is, but maybe John Best will discuss it with you on here.

Foresam said...

Maybe the kid Ender is talking about is the one who did a video with Amanda Baggs. If so, there's something wrong there since Baggs is a criminal. The kid must have been presented in some bogus fashion.
Ender keeps hounding about some kid who wrote a book, as if any kid has anything worthwhile to say. Learning to hit a baseball is much more important to the kid's overall well being, and a lot better for his reputation than hanging around with criminals.

Arthur Golden said...

jonathan said...

"...So far if there is a way to get a nonverbal autistic to speak and ND has a solution without curing the child, they certainly have not shown it to anyone...."

January 23, 2009 9:22 AM

Then

Ender said...

"A nonverbal child to speak... does anyone else notice the problem there. But lets overlook that problem and ask you about DJ Savarese or the like. He has a book deal for crying out loud. Do you really think he has that much trouble speaking? Yet by most definations he would be almost as severely autistic as Sam Best. His parents are ND though."

January 25, 2009 4:08 PM

DJ Savarese, a young teenager, is nonverbal, as is my soon-to-be 37 year old son Ben, and both of them are "low-functioning" autistics who communicate "just fine" (my son Ben's phrase) with Facilitated Communication ("FC"). By the way, Michelle Dawson rejects Facilitated Communication because the "FC promoters" such as Professor Douglas Biklen of Syracuse University have been unable during the past 20 years to conduct scientific research to validate FC that meets Michelle Dawson's so-called "recognized standards of science and ethics." So, since Michelle Dawson opposes it, I hope you will at least consider the use of FC which allows nonverbal autistics to "overcome all the communication issues of autism" (again, my son Ben's phrase) even though many "high-functioning" autistics continue to have serious communication issues. So while Dawson's research may not be able to show that autistics with low IQ scores are really quite intelligent, I believe that FC does show they generally have superior intelligence. Unlike Michelle Dawson and her friends, you can have an open discussion with me about FC and my other positions about autism.

Arthur Golden of Jerusalem Israel

Arthur Golden said...

Jonathan,

You and Harold Doherty must not be too bad because you two have not been banned by Michelle Dawson from posting to her QuickTopic discussion board and her blog. I have the distinction that I have been banned by Michelle Dawson. Still, I do think that you both are being unfairly treated by Michelle Dawson and her friends.

While I agree with much of what you and Harold Doherty have to write, I do find your language to be harsh and if you are not banned for such language and I have been banned by Michelle Dawson (with her sterling reputation with so many people), what impression does the public have about my language! Actually, in this context, I think I have been very unfairly treated by Michelle Dawson. I tried to discuss this issue with Michelle Dawson by private email but she completely ignored my several emails (less than 10, including copies of emails to others) that I have sent her during the past year. Instead Michelle Dawson publicly falsely charged me with serious misbehavior including most recently a serious felony. I find the typed language used by Michelle Dawson and her friends to be very harsh, in contrast to the typed language produced by my son Ben and others with "low-functioning" autism through Facilitated Communication. As I already mentioned to you, I think it is futile to try to discuss anything with Michelle Dawson and her friends (unless of course you absolutely agree with her).

Although I find your language "harsh" I do understand it is in response to even harsher language against you. But I am interested in trying to understand why the tone of my son's language seems so different from persons with "high-functioning" autism. As I wrote in a previous comment, it seems that the use of Facilitated Communication does actually overcome all the communication issues associated with autism. Do you or anyone else have any thoughts on these issues you would like to share with me?

Arthur Golden

jonathan said...

Hi Arthur, I would prefer not to comment on facilitated communication at this time, but I may at some point.

If I have ever been harsh towards people it was because they have been harsh, abusive and insulting to me, harshness may beget harshness. I realize personal attacks and insults are par for the course for the neurodiversity movement.

From what little I know about Michelle banning you from her blog and comment board, she seemed to feel that you were trying to control her and order her around I remember her saying and telling her she must do this and that. But I really don't know the whole circumstances and I guess you will have to take that up with Michelle.

Of course if you are obsessed with Michelle and want to refute what she says, or counter anything she says on her blog or comment board I suppose you could start your own blog or website to refute what she says if you can't do it on her blog.

I had to ban someone from autism's gadfly and this person has made a parody blog which tries to dispute everything I say. I suppose you could do the same thing with Michelle.

Arthur Golden said...

Jonathan,

Thank you for the quick and detailed reply, with specific suggestions.

My issue is not just Facilitated Communication but the true intelligence of persons considered to have "low-functioning" autism and my reasons (other than the research of Michelle Dawson) to believe for over 20 years that they generally have superior intelligence. I hope you will be up to an open discussion soon.

I think I now have Michelle Dawson "out of my system."

Uh, I do note that the title of 3 of your last 6 blogs start with Michelle Dawson...

Art

Cube Demon said...

What delightful people some of the curebies are. *biting sarcasm*

jonathan said...

Maybe you are contagious, Art (VBG), guess I will have to lay off of Michelle for a while myself.

jonathan said...

Apparently Clay Adams is still posing as Ivar and leaving me abusive comments which I am rejecting. He said that if I said nothing insulting that he would be done with the issue. As I have not posted anything new on ABFH's thread since he said that, obviously it is not true. It is a shame he has to keep doing that.

This is something for all those folks who are beating me up in the leftbrain/right brain thread and giving a one sided account of what happened to think about. This is what I have to contend with and hard not to respond in kind. Again, I do have some regrets that I stooped to the ND's level and ended up being just as abusive as they were, but sometimes it is difficult not to turn the other cheek. Something for all of them who are implying that I somehow started this food fight to think about.

Anonymous said...

"I learned to hate autism and wish for a cure, from having to suffer from years of rejection, years of having to be addicted to self-stimulatory behaviors and not being able to attend regular school or make a living or have any sort of a near normal life that many if not most of the neurodiversity proponents enjoy and take for granted and a multitude of other disabilities and problems that are too lengthy to mention in this already long post"

The 'cure' for you is quite simple-you may need to get ahold of and work on your self-pity.
Why do you think that *you* are entitled to this fantasy 'near normal' life you mention, or believe that you are worse off than the "many, if not most(exaggerate much?) ND proponents" you mention here, or that you are entitled to *anything* at all, for that matter? Is that written in the stars somewhere?

This self pitying attitude colors everything you think and then write about.