Thursday, September 4, 2008

Another ASD sufferer writes anti-neurodiversity essay

There is not a whole lot that is written on the age of autism web page that I agree with. Today, I was happy to read an essay that was published there by a young man with Asperger's syndrome named Jake Crosby. He writes An essay against neurodiversity. He seems to also take the AOA line about vaccines causing autism which I don't really agree with, but other than that it was a really excellent essay. At least some people who are familiar with my work are aware of my essay where I urge people interested in autism to just say no to neurodiversity. I am glad another person who suffers from ASD has also written on this subject.

37 comments:

Roger Kulp said...

Well Johnathan,as you yourself have said on numerous occasions,the neurodiversity and mercury militia factions are continually at war with one another.And like you,I would like nothing more than to see the fight between the two factions escalate to the point where both have been completely discredited. This young man here makes some very eloquent and passionate arguments, that point out the bullshit and hypocrisy of the neurodiversity movement,and then he slips comfortably into the standard line of propaganda spouted by those who equate autism with vaccines and mercury.These people are fanatics, and no amount of scientific data to the contrary is going to cause them to rethink their position.Mr.Crosby even trots out the standard line, that the researchers are paid tools of the vaccine makers and drug companies.He no doubt grew up as the son of one of these "mercury moms",who drilled this garbage into his head from an early age.There is no other way he could sound so educated and indoctrinated in this crap by the age of nineteen or twenty.

Mr.Crosby and his ilk,usually have no real response when confronted with people who have either classic Kanner autism,or autism,and Fragile X,when you ask them if vaccines/mercury caused all of the other non-neurologicaldevelopmental ,and medical problems we have.Or those like myself,who were diagnosed as adults,with one of the more serious ASDs,because we were children before autism made it into the DSM in the 1980s,and as a result received an endless string of other diagnoses.

What sort of retort would they have,when I told them,that after many years of work,I had a recurrence of acute bacterial meningitis last year,and soon thereafter,suffered severe autistic regression,head banging,elopement, feces hoarding, the whole nine yards.

The autism-vaccine debate is not going to die.Mr.Crosby here,proves it is simply passed from parent to child,the way other misguided ideology,like white supremacy.This is going to be one of the great biomedical debates of the 21st Century,perhaps when today's toddlers are senior citizens,the issue may finally be resolved.

Ender said...

I believe the option of a "cure" should be a choice given to aspies or auties (high functioning obviously) once they are old enough to make that decision. Course I think that cure is not there yet, like you do. The problem with the mercury militia is for the most part they (see Johnyboy for a classic example) would force that cure down our childrens throughts and encourage other parents to do the same without a second thought.

While I have heard that arguement that it won't change how our kids are at all, I find that arguement ludicrous. Of course it would change our kids, anything that we associate with asperger's would be gone. And yes, despite what this essay says, that does include our talents, and yes there are some that while not part of the diagnostic criteria, are certainly there.

And thats not even the scariest opition for a cure. There is even the idea of abortion through prenatal testing. While you may not like being on the autism spectrum, I can only assume that you would prefer it over never living. I don't know, until I know that I, and any future aspie can be safe, I must stick to fighting the mercury militia.

jonathan said...

Ender- what about the 3 year old kid who can't speak, severely autistic, bangs head on walls. You and the rest of the ND's just feel he should rot in an institution the rest of his life. We should just wait until he is 20 or whatever the age of consent is and then ask him when he is still not talking? No, autism is a disease that ravages people and prevents them from making a living.

No one ever said a cure won't change the person. Of course it would! That is what we want, a better life for ourselves, or loved ones! We want to change them so they have a shot at life, won't be crippled and sick, will be able to make a living, have friends, lovers, etc. If these are possible without a cure, ND still seems to come up short of a solution as usual.

I don't believe John Best has any interest in curing you. He only longs for a cure for his son who has problems far more pronounced than yours or mine, barring a miracle he will never be able to write an entry in a blog like this refuting what you are saying. Sure John wants to change his son! What's wrong with that? He does not want his son biting himself, hardly able to speak, not able to take care of himself in any manner. Though I don't agree with all he says or his tactics I can certainly understand why he has so much contempt for all of the ND's.

The abortion of autistic fetuses is a trite argument that has nothing to do with reality. It has nothing to do with finding a cure for people who are suffering from this horrible disability. Perhaps ND should try using another argument.

Ender said...

Thats why I said high functioning autistics and aspies right away. Please pay attention to what I say before creating a red herring to counteract it. It really is annoying when you do so. So there goes your "what about the 3 year old kid who can't speak, severely autistic, bangs head on walls" arguement.

I fully believe aspies can make a living, won't be ravaged by it, and will be able to use the gifts brought by it if we come up with a way of letting them. Already schools and other organization are popping up everywhere to do just this, seems better then a magical cure, at least to me it does. Most of them brought to you by people who believe in neurodiversity, even if they don't say it. Hell, even social skills classes availble in most larger communities and schools help aspies cope with their problems. So there goes your "If these are possible without a cure, ND still seems to come up short of a solution as usual" arguement.

And John has stated repeatedly how dangerous aspies are, how bad we are, how there are absolutely no positives, and a million negatives... why wouldn't he want to cure aspies with an attitude like that? I have even met parents of aspies who feel it is their right to choose what becomes of their kid. I just want the choice to be in the hands of aspies and not their parents, doctors, shrinks, or anyone else. What is wrong with that?

And every day there are being more and more tests to find the genetic links of autism. Once we have found those prenatal tests are a small step away. Can you name me one disability that sees less the 50% of the known cases aborted? Lastly, there goes your, "It has nothing to do with finding a cure for people who are suffering from this horrible disability" arguement... so what were you saying again

jonathan said...

Where is the line between low and high functioning, Brian? How do you determine that. How high functioning do you have to be? Most of your pals in the ND movement would be offended by the use of your terms low and high functioning. Also, functioning levels can change. At 3, I was as low functioning as the most severe autistics or close to it. I partially recovered. How are we to know who is to become high or low fuunctioning when they get older. It is you who are creating red herrings.

Also if you are so concerned about abortion, why aren't you lobbying agaisnt genetic research. Why aren't you lobbying your State legilsatures and governor to outlaw abortion in your state or trying to get Roe Vs. Wade overturned? what does the mercury militia have to do with abortion? Why are you fighting them over abortion? You seem to want to spend time commenting on John Best's blog and giving him a hard time instead of engaging in what would be more constructive activities. Just seems like another ND copout to me

Ender said...

So whats your solution, just cure everyone at 3, even if theres a better option that allows them to keep their gifts. I don't buy it, not for one second. Your very good at coming up with problems, try coming up with some solutions to go along with them. I don't want to be cured, I don't want my children or any other aspie child to be cured. Find a way to accomplish that and curing the more severe cases and I am fine with it. I believe with intense interests and other things that come from asperger's, do come gifts, and there are a good deal of people who would agree with me.

And I am not creating red herrings fyi, that is the wrong word, I am just creating what you consider to be false distinctions for a group at a certain point. Red herring is creating an arguement that was never made. You could say I am doing that with the abortion issue, but I am just trying to tell you what form a cure will most likely take.

And who is to say I can't do both? Doesn't take that long to post here, just ask John who can take care of a severely autistic boy while blogging every day.

jonathan said...

what gifts are those? I am unaware of any gifts produced by ASD's. Have you read my posts on Freudian defense mechanisms being an explaination of the genesis of the ND movement? This is just an example of reaction formation as a psychologic defense mechanism.

Yes, I am for curing the autistic at 3, if that is what their parents want assuming a cure existed which it doesn't

If you don't want to be cured or your children that is fine with me. If someone with very mild asperger's who is not affected by their autism or does not feel like they are and is an adult I am fine with that. All the power to them. But that is not the case for many persons myself included.

It seems strange to me that you want to post on John's blog and give him such a hard time if you are in favor of curing someone like his son. It seems like you are saying you are on his side on one hand, yet you want to argue with him about a cure in general. I really don't understand.

Ender said...

I post like that on John's site because I believe he is hurting his son through these tactics. If he wants to try to cure his son fine by me, but he is taking it too far and its causing harm to his son. His son will never be NT, and I think even autistics can sense when they aren't being accepted by someone they love. I also post like that on Johns site because he is constantly attacking aspies.

So you would honestly try telling me that the intense and singular focus that seems inherient with aspies could never be a good thing? Can you name me a great person at anything that didn't have such an intense focus. Einstein= physics, Gates= Computers, Mozart= music, Speilburg= movies, etc. (notice I didn't say they were aspies, just that they had an intense sigular focus.)

Hell if you want a confirmed aspie doing something great with her focus look at Vernon Smith (Nobel Prize winning economist) or even Temple Grandin. No very few would say that there are no advantages to asperger's at least in that respect. I mean since asperger's was added to the DSM-IV there have been 12 nobel prize winner in economics, 60 in all (I believe), and one was aspie. Not bad for a condition that effects one out of every maybe 500 (for higher function aspies/auties).

In addition to that I have worked with many aspie kids. Most of the ones that have received social skills classes were pretty normal socially and seemed to make friends just fine. Yes there will always be problems with bullies, but since when did we let them dictate our life.

Part of the problem is we are still looking at the situation from the perspective of older people who went through hell growing up (and had it effect us subsequently) back before asperger's was well known (in my case) or even a disorder (in your case). Solutions are being made that don't involve changing the whole child. Doesn't that sound like a better solution to you?

I suppose I just don't agree with making that decision for your kid. I mean girls seem to have it way tougher in life, will probably not make as much as their male counterparts, and have to be afraid of way more. Does that mean a parent has the right to make their girl a boy, so they don't have to fight that? How about a black parent making their kid white? I wouldn't think so.

Timelord said...

"I am unaware of any gifts produced by ASD's."

1. Perserverence
2. Honesty
3. Lateral thinking
4. Diligence
5. Sense of Justice

All of them to an exceptional level.

And then there are the individual talents which vary from ASD person to ASD person.

You don't know much about the upper end of the Spectrum, do you Jonathon?

jonathan said...

I know far more about it than you phil, I have been dealing with all of the issues, special education, rejection by peers, inability to make a living going back long before you were conceived. Unlike you, I am not a self-diagnosed aspie just claiming to know anything about ASD's.

Ender said...

Then why don't you bother responding to my post Jonny? If its possible to make the gifts of asperger's (that I showed quite well as did Phil) and cure some of the problems. Why not go that route. Instead of curing the problems and getting rid of the gifts. Programs are being set up every month (probably more) to try and do just that. Why not pledge your support to them, or at least blog about them? I could show you a few if you wish.

Andi said...

I was diagnosed - *actually* diagnosed, not just self-diagnosed - with Aspergers, at age 27.

I always knew I was different from everyone around me, and I sometimes mourned that I upset people I cared about and couldn't figure out why. Growing up aspie is difficult, no question. I imagine that growing up autistic is more difficult. That is *precisely* why I am pro-neurodiversity. I want neurodiversity to succeed so that being "normal" isn't the only way someone can have a happy childhood. I want neurodiversity to succeed so that one more form of prejudice can be eliminated -- prejudice against those who appear different.

That said, I am strongly in favor of improving quality of life. If a parent has discovered that the GF/CF diet allows their child who is suffering from digestive issues to function, allows them to learn and grow and develop, then that is a *good* thing. Unfortunately, some parents take an "all-or-nothing" approach to autism. I attended a presentation by a DAN advocate who was working hard to eliminate every trace of autistic behavior from her son, using pretty much any technique she could find. She was chelating him, he was on 2 different diets (GF/CF and something else that restricted more foods), she had him on a huge number of supplements, she had given him FULL-BODY blood transfusions (like an oil change, but of his blood!!!)

All this because he still occasionally stimmed when happy or upset. All this because he didn't appear *quite* normal enough. He was verbal, functioning in a normal school, growing and developing at something close to a "normal" level. However, any bit of difference was one more reason to try yet another treatment, to eradicate any trace of autistic behaviors.

That kind of extreme reaction to autism is what I hope neurodiversity can overcome. I am 100% in favor of research, and even treatments, that will help non-communicative, non-potty trained, non-functional children grow into happy, functional, communicating adults -- I just believe that we need to widen the scope of what that can look like. Neurodiversity to me is as much about changing the world as it is about accepting my autistic differences.

I read a quote in a textbook on abnormal child psychology that said, "My 8-year-old son, Jay, is autistic. Autism is blatantly wrong. It is maladaptive. I know it; Jay knows it." This statement breaks my heart. I find it terribly tragic that this child has been raised with the belief that *any* part of who he currently is -- whether you believe that autism is an inherent part of an individual or some kind of "intrusion" -- could be "blatantly wrong." What kind of message is this mother sending to her son? How does this benefit him, her, or their family in any way?

This underlying opinion -- that something that has shaped who I am in profound ways that could not be removed, even if a "cure" were found -- is "blatantly wrong" is the biggest reason I hope the neurodiversity movement succeeds. This kind of attitude helps no one, and only serves to further alienate people who are already struggling socially. It would be far better if autism were accepted as a part of society -- then we could focus on fixing (even "curing," if you like) those things that come with autism that are actually problems, such as digestive issues or an inability to communicate, and leave the parts of autism that make autistic individuals interesting, unique human beings.

Timelord said...

I know far more about it than you phil, I have been dealing with all of the issues, special education, rejection by peers, inability to make a living going back long before you were conceived. Unlike you, I am not a self-diagnosed aspie just claiming to know anything about ASD's.

Excuse me, but I am NOT self diagnosed. I have a formal DX - AND four confirmations. I have been researching this ever since my initial DX, and that was over a decade ago. You do not know more about it than I do for one simple reason. You won't listen to facts from others who have the experience - and likely more experience in the areas you claim to have. I don't mean myself but I do mean others. Rejection by peers? Been there. Inability to make a living? Been there as well. Special ed? Maybe not, but I am aware of others. How much attention do you actually pay to the experiences of others? Zero I'll bet. So what if you're older than I am. That's irrelevant.

Incidentally, Autism is not what made you retire. Society made you retire. You should be helping those who have been let down by society by fighting for Autistic rights - not looking for a non existant cure for a condition that is not a disease and 100 percent negative. A good start would be to support the groups that Ender spoke of, that are targetting the gifts and providing paths that both you and I were deprived of at that time out of sheer ignorance.

Roger Kulp said...

Jumping back in here,"Timelord", here ,yes I'm a big fan of The Doctor myself,makes a very good case for argument,that those with Asperger's be considered to have a separate disorder,yes disorder than those with both classic Kanner autism,and PDD.Much as autism itself used to be considered a subtype of schizophrenia,perhaps each should be considered separately.

Such a classification,would solve a lot of the problems caused by activist "aspies",that make up the autistic pride movement.Yes,they ARE dangerous,yes they ARE a problem.No one said that because they cause a big problem,with their neurodiversity bullshit,they don't contribute anything positive otherwise.

"Andi's"comments about Asperger's making her "who she is",sound very much like those who promote a "culture of deafness",and resist any sort of surgical,or electronic advances,that allow the deaf to hear.Explain to me the difference,if there is any.

As for lines high and low functioning.There are clear demarcations.If a child is not toilet trained by the time they are of school age,if a child cannot catch a ball by the time they are twelve,if a child slips into a dementia like state,an wanders for miles,with no idea who they are,where they are,or what they are doing there is clearly something wrong.If a child headbangs,or runs around a kindergarten class naked,there is clearly something wrong.If a child wants to sit and pick at the seams on the upholstery of a sofa,until he takes the sofa apart,there is clearly something wrong.If a child wants to do nothing but stand and rotate in a circle ALL DAY LONG,there is clearly something wrong.I did all this,and more.Yet I was not retarded.I was verbal,and read well above grade level.

Are these "gifts" to be "celebrated",or are these things you want to get under control,if not "cure",so the kid can have a semi-normal childhood?Is it possible to get to be a Nobel Prize winner,if you have these "gifts",as well the "gifts" of systemic autoimmune diseases ?

I know of nobody who SERIOUSLY suggested the aborting of autistic fetuses,specifically.Links to relevant statement would be appreciated.Some have made made off the cuff remarks,but this is usually a red herring the neurodiversity crowd likes to throw out.It is fear mongering,plain and simple.

Foresam said...

Ender,
I don't want to force a cure on all Aspies, just the really stupid ones like you and Phil. Nobody should have to go through life acting that idiotic.

Ross Lumbus said...

You do make some very silly comments Phil and often because of this, people don't take you as seriously as you would wish.

"I am unaware of any gifts produced by ASD's."

1. Perserverence
2. Honesty
3. Lateral thinking
4. Diligence
5. Sense of Justice

All of them to an exceptional level


This is not all people on the spectrum nor is it all Aspies. In fact often when you speak of Aspies you speak solely of you. You and your egocentric mind with self-centred and self-seeking responses.

Let's face it too Timelord. You are not just an Aspie with Aspie concerns or Aspie problems. You have a personality disorder and Schizoid Disorder too. Am I right?

Now what you profess to know by being an Aspie is completely compromised by these and whatever else you have. Am I correct?

In regards to your self-sseking/centred behaviour you claim the your Football Project as something worthwhile and importance. You say that it is proof of your being productive. It kinda isn't important though, not to anyone else but you. You are interested in it and have tried to get sponsorship and people on board and no-one is the slightest bit interested and you claim it is because of this or that and no-one else but you sees the potential and the reason is...... it is not important or productive and is a worthless fixation that only you have. Am I right?

You admonish this bloke for not listening to the facts but then you don't either. You seem to use the age card a bit too. You use it with practically anyone younger than you. The truth is your experiences are of no better quality than anyone else's. The only real example you serve is a bad one. Am I correct?

You have taken yourself out of Autism Advocacy circles pretty much by your own choices. Tell me 20000 members in WP & 10000 in AFF, how well are you considered there? What about the new site that has started from AFF? Autism Hub how well are you considered there? Now why is this? Your choices - am I right?

The more you do the less gets done and the more people shun you. Does that upset you? Do you get upset that people can not appreciate the talents you believe you have nor your passion nor conviction and that in so many aspects of your life doors get firmly closed? You need to concentrate on that with your next appointment with your psychiatrist. I am not wrong here am I Timelord

Ender said...

John, I love it when people call me stupid. Will make my masters degree feel all the sweeter when I get it from a top university :).

jonathan said...

Will make my masters degree feel all the sweeter when I get it from a top university :)

All the more reason to get off your high horse and stop trivializing those of us with ASD's who are far more severely afflicted than you and trivializing John's son's serious autism.

Roger Kulp said...

Ross Lumbus said...
You do make some very silly comments Phil and often because of this, people don't take you as seriously as you would wish.

"I am unaware of any gifts produced by ASD's."

1. Perserverence
2. Honesty
3. Lateral thinking
4. Diligence
5. Sense of Justice

All of them to an exceptional level
---------------------------------------
You will get no argument from me on this. Bluntness and honesty to a fault has gotten me in trouble more times than I care to count.You forgot retention of facts,data,and such,as well as attention to detail,that serves us so well in creative endeavors.I also have given up on activist work,as so few people share my passion fed by the things you mention.This perserverence,I find often comes from the same place as the desire to elope,and such,and is just as strong.It all depends on my cognitive function at the time.

And therein lies one of my main problems with many neurodiversity types.Too many of them give short shrift to both the more severe forms/symptoms of autism,and to those who have medically complicated forms of the disorder.Fragile x or otherwise.Forget immune disease,how often do you hear a neurodiversity advocate acknowledge there can often be MAJOR,albeit temporary cognitive deficits in autism,that can rival Alzheimer's ?

That and far too many of those who advocate neurodiversity have a strident,in your face attitude that seems to greatly contradict the communicative difficulties that accompany ASDs.

Timelord said...

"This is not all people on the spectrum nor is it all Aspies. In fact often when you speak of Aspies you speak solely of you. You and your egocentric mind with self-centred and self-seeking responses."

Incorrect. I know other Aspies and Auties and most of them have all of those traits. Even you have some of them. You've definitely got #1 and #3. #5 as well even though it's warped. Not sure about #4. The only one I definitely wouldn't give you is #2.

"Let's face it too Timelord. You are not just an Aspie with Aspie concerns or Aspie problems. You have a personality disorder and Schizoid Disorder too. Am I right?"

The main part of me is Aspergers. The others are minor and virtually irrelevant when it comes down to brass tacks. Just to put that in proper context. And the personality disorder developed because of the lack of AS DX. It has improved now as I have adjusted. The schizoid only affects me in one minor area and that's it.

"Now what you profess to know by being an Aspie is completely compromised by these and whatever else you have. Am I correct?"

No you are not.

"In regards to your self-sseking/centred behaviour you claim the your Football Project as something worthwhile and importance. You say that it is proof of your being productive. It kinda isn't important though, not to anyone else but you."

WRONG! It is important to the entire grass roots football community! Want me to provide you with emails to prove it? Including one from the Western Australian Country Football League?

"You are interested in it and have tried to get sponsorship and people on board and no-one is the slightest bit interested and you claim it is because of this or that and no-one else but you sees the potential and the reason is...... it is not important or productive and is a worthless fixation that only you have. Am I right?"

No, wrong - it's because the money in football is hogged by the AFL. They aren't interested in the project, but then they aren't interested in anything at grass roots level. Local clubs hate the AFL for that as much as I do. They don't have the spare money and I don't expect them to.

"You admonish this bloke for not listening to the facts but then you don't either. You seem to use the age card a bit too. You use it with practically anyone younger than you. The truth is your experiences are of no better quality than anyone else's. The only real example you serve is a bad one. Am I correct?"

No, wrong - again. You're making a very bad habit of this, Lumbus. Has your anisthetic worn off from your gall bladder operation yet? I would say not.

"You have taken yourself out of Autism Advocacy circles pretty much by your own choices. Tell me 20000 members in WP & 10000 in AFF, how well are you considered there?"

By most on both forums, quite well. Look at the number of people who farewelled me on WP - including an enemy by the way! And you can't talk about AFF! Just because the ownership doesn't like me that much doesn't mean the whole membership hates my guts!

"What about the new site that has started from AFF? Autism Hub how well are you considered there? Now why is this? Your choices - am I right?"

If I was ill considered by the Hub I would have been booted - and I haven't. I don't care about Spectrumites. At least the submission crew has moved there now and maybe the Nelson's can get back to proper activism.

"The more you do the less gets done and the more people shun you. Does that upset you? Do you get upset that people can not appreciate the talents you believe you have nor your passion nor conviction and that in so many aspects of your life doors get firmly closed? You need to concentrate on that with your next appointment with your psychiatrist. I am not wrong here am I Timelord"

Yes you are, because you are shit scared of me, Lumbus. You are being dictated by your emotions because you are determined to shut me up. Well it won't work. I know what I know, and I know more than you give me credit for. If anyone lacks experience it's you, because you've deliberately shunned it. You're even worse than Mitchell here. Why don't you criticise him for not working, hmm? I'm not. I'm criticising him for other things.

Move on, Lumbus. Get out of what you don't want to understand or accept. You accuse me of being solely self centred. Go look in the mirror!

Timelord said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Timelord said...

Mitchell, understand this. Sam's situation can be a lot better, but it's not because his father is neglecting him. That's trivial? Hardly! Best is trying to teach him to be NT - and that's a lost cause. He won't accept him as Autistic and switch the education and treatment accordingly. Sam is going to end up in an institution eventually - and that is not trivial either. It's downright serious, especially as there may be a chance it's too late. Who's fault is that?

Best's. And not thiomersal as he'll keep on saying it is.

And lay off Ender. By getting a degree he has proven you wrong about lack of gifts in Aspies. Good for you, Ender! If only I had the same benefits you got when I was your age!

Timelord said...

Roger, there is nothing wrong with being honest and blunt. It's needed. The only issue is picking the right time and place to do it - and most importantly the right reason.

But you picked up the other good ones, and you're quite right.

Not only that, I am one activist that DOES recognise the difficulties faced by those on the lower end of the Spectrum. I'm all for helping them - but it has to be the right sort of help. You'll find that there are activists who oppose the wrong treatments, but when confronted with the situation at hand they shut up. I don't. I provide alternatives - based on the theory I hold to at present regarding sensory overload. And also working away from the idea that all LFA's should be judged solely on intelligence level (which is unfair even though it's a medical fact that LFA's are low in IQ - which in itself is an issue because LFA's can't score in parts of the IQ tests). Recognition of the different parts of the Spectrum is important - that's something else that some ND activists shun - but having said that we have to start from the point of it's all Autistic Spectrum Disorder. That's the first hurdle because the root condition is what must be accepted first. If we get that it will be easier to move onto the different parts.

One more thing, Roger. You'll find that a lot of ASD people are able to communicate more easily through a keyboard than in real life. That's why the Internet is important to those on the Spectrum. And the "in your face" attitude is a reaction to those who put down the condition as absolutely 100 percent negative (like Mitchell and Best), and those who put the condition as an irritant than can be overcome in such a way that it simplifies it to the level or irrelevance (like Lumbus). It's a very big mess at the moment as we fight those who seek the eugenic solution to the Spectrum - a solution that goes against every single human right one can think of.

Ross Lumbus said...

I think you are trying to talk for other's on the spectrum again aren't you Timelord.

You say "and those who put the condition as an irritant than can be overcome in such a way that it simplifies it to the level or irrelevance (like Lumbus)"

But see I have never alluded to this and furthermore do not believe that life will be anything but a struggle that I have to steel my resolve against. I don't believe that I can be cured, re-educated, or otherwise molded. I do not believe that the way my autistic traits affect me is anything but pervasive and relevant to who I am as a person.

Got that kinda wrong then huh?

But then you got this wrong too, "Yes you are, because you are shit scared of me, Lumbus." . I am not scared of you Timelord. You are an internerd falling into obscurity and having more and more people in the fields of your contact laugh at you.

You have said "Maybe you will withdraw from society one day" and really no-one I think will be greatly affected by this transition.

Just for clarification, when you said, "If I was ill considered by the Hub I would have been booted - and I haven't", are you saying then (without lying or evading) that you were not recently bought up as a discussion point and roundly condemned by a lot of the big names there? If so this would mean you were ill considered. They do not like your brand of advocacy nor what you tried to do at AFF do they? (Wonder who spilled the beans there?)

Why were you choosing to leave Wrongplanet (The biggest online AS community)? What did MrMark say? Why did you put direct posts from a girl identified as a 14 year old in a (protest) hate blog called ASDHating? Why did you then hide that blog behind passwords on your forum? Why were you using TLPG as your alias and not Timelord?

Why do you want to keep taking people to court all the time? Do you need it to make you feel important or clever? Do you notice that no-one else online seems to and the average person does not seem to? Why do you have so many "enemies" and why do these people not bother with taking you to court?

See I find you not scary but kinda weird and interesting. I really think that you should take a long hard look at yourself and laugh at yourself like we all do.

Dave said...

This Timelord sure seems to know a lot about you, Ross. Is he watching you or something?

Ross Lumbus said...

Timelord? Stalking? Using the internet world to push into non-online aspects of a person's world?

What do ya reckon Timelord? Ever done that to anyone or do you keep online disputes online like a normal human?

Andi said...

roger kulp replied to my comment:

""Andi's" comments about Asperger's making her "who she is",sound very much like those who promote a "culture of deafness",and resist any sort of surgical,or electronic advances,that allow the deaf to hear.Explain to me the difference,if there is any."

My experiences in life are due in large part to living with Aspergers, and those experiences have made me who I am today. Even if I were suddenly "cured" today, Aspergers would have made me who I am, as it has been an integral part of my life and personality to this point in my life.

As far as "Deaf culture," the issues *are* similar. Culturally Deaf people reject advances that would allow them to hear because they feel it denies them of their culture, which is built on their visual language. It sounds, from your comments, like you would prefer to force hearing on perfectly happy Deaf people as well. However, that is a debate for another forum.

roger kulp also said:
"I know of nobody who SERIOUSLY suggested the aborting of autistic fetuses,specifically.Links to relevant statement would be appreciated.Some have made made off the cuff remarks,but this is usually a red herring the neurodiversity crowd likes to throw out.It is fear mongering,plain and simple."

I think the fear here has to do with what has happened with Down Syndrome. I couldn't find a source better than Wikipedia (I'm on my lunch break and out of time -- someone help me out!), but the *estimates* are that around 90% of fetuses which are genetically tested and found to have Down Syndrome are subsequently aborted. A prenatal test for autism might result in a similar rate.

Timelord said...

"I think you are trying to talk for other's on the spectrum again aren't you Timelord."

I'm trying to educate people on the experiences of others (not just myself).

"But see I have never alluded to this and furthermore do not believe that life will be anything but a struggle that I have to steel my resolve against. I don't believe that I can be cured, re-educated, or otherwise molded. I do not believe that the way my autistic traits affect me is anything but pervasive and relevant to who I am as a person."

And yet you push people into fitting in with the NT world - thereby pushing AS into the realms of irrelevance. So yes - you have alluded to it, or imputed it. Same thing.

"But then you got this wrong too, "Yes you are, because you are shit scared of me, Lumbus." . I am not scared of you Timelord. You are an internerd falling into obscurity and having more and more people in the fields of your contact laugh at you."

Now I'm laughing, because this is what scares you! I am NOT falling into obscurity, and the number of people laughing at me is actually DROPPING! AND you know it and it scares you!

"You have said "Maybe you will withdraw from society one day" and really no-one I think will be greatly affected by this transition."

That shows how much you know.

"Just for clarification, when you said, "If I was ill considered by the Hub I would have been booted - and I haven't", are you saying then (without lying or evading) that you were not recently bought up as a discussion point and roundly condemned by a lot of the big names there?"

That's not what I was talking about - and that debate surrounded one particular aspect of my online activity and one only (Best and issues related to him). The end point was they didn't agree with me, but they let me go. As long as it doesn't affect my participation in the Hub - which basically boils down to my ASD Blog and that's it.

"Why were you choosing to leave Wrongplanet (The biggest online AS community)? What did MrMark say?"

None of your business. That's private.

"Why did you put direct posts from a girl identified as a 14 year old in a (protest) hate blog called ASDHating?"

She's not 14. I know that now and I have evidence of it.

"Why did you then hide that blog behind passwords on your forum?"

Because of people like you who are so scared of me you'll do anything to discredit me and twist things away from their actual meaning.

"Why were you using TLPG as your alias and not Timelord?"

Actually I don't remember the reason for that to be honest at the time. Now of course I use it to keep people like you away from me. Are you trying to drive me off the Internet lock stock and barrel? Am I correct?

"Why do you want to keep taking people to court all the time? Do you need it to make you feel important or clever? Do you notice that no-one else online seems to and the average person does not seem to? Why do you have so many "enemies" and why do these people not bother with taking you to court?"

To answer that last one - because they don't have my service address. I have only ever acted with one - except for Paris Tenana but that was an emergency. Note, that I have only actually taken action against individuals who break the law, whether it be criminal or civil. If they don't (as is the case with most of the Aspie enemies) then I don't take them to court. And that represents the majority. I do it to protect myself - and for no other reason. And it happens only when there is no alternative.

"See I find you not scary but kinda weird and interesting. I really think that you should take a long hard look at yourself and laugh at yourself like we all do."

You are using laughter to hide your fear of me, Lumbus. Again - if anyone needs to take a long hard look at themselves it's you. Why else - for example - would you report me to Centrelink? How does that equate to "Using the internet world to push into non-online aspects of a person's world" hmm? Which just for the record is why I RESPONDED IN KIND and reported you to AGL.

You're scared. If I was so unimportant as you claim, you'd be ignoring me. But you're not. You create the excuse to hide the truth. Says plenty.

Dave, Lumbus has displayed his life out in the open. If anyone is doing any stalking here it's actually him. He has followed me to a number of different forums and posted on them in response to me. I have NEVER done that to anyone - let alone him.

Foresam said...

Timelord,
I heard your father and your wife are both transexuals. Is that true?

Ross Lumbus said...

" Why else - for example - would you report me to Centrelink? How does that equate to "Using the internet world to push into non-online aspects of a person's world" hmm?"

Don't you remember threatening to take me to court? Of course you do! Were it not for that though...

I am not scared of you Timelord but if you want to believe that, it is really OK with me. Fantasies are free and believe me there are worse things you could be fantasising about me.

See I heard it was your Father but presumed it to be someone out for a stir. It doesn't matter though right? I mean you have grown into a well-adjusted sensible man regardless. Still, now I am interested......

JediKnight2 said...

I have a solution. *Takes a deep breath and screams outloud like a giant machine gun firing bullets rapidly*...... How about those morondiversity nitwits get off the damn Internet and get some professional help?

Is it really that difficult to problem solve? Oh wait, they can't! They couldn't solve a common denominator if their lives depended on it.

Anyone involved within ND is thrown into the role of 'case manager' throughout their entire lives, so they don't think about working on pragmatics and social skills or even trying other methods like neurofeedback to alliviate the autistic symptoms.

Heck, even these people are confused about themselves!
*Ok, now I've calmed down*

http://www.intensitysquared.com/index.php/topic,9239.0.html

These 'aspies' continue to perseverate on a loooong thread about anything 'AS' they've done while most of them still don't want to be cured, and trashtalk Alex Plank and his site.

ASD folks keeping up with blogs about autism isn't much different, but you know what? It's nobody's fault professionals didn't know as much about autism as they are discovering now.

Now maybe, JUST MAYBE DANMMIT.... if they'd just take my advice, things would change. I'm the one that should be as famous as Temple Grandin, but NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! We have a naive (and possibly religious) population who believe Temple Grandin is a hero because her brain damage causes her to have some cognitive thinking deficits which is the whole damn reason why she believes she thinks in pictures.

Temple, you only think in fucking concrete patterns and are successful INSPITE of your autism. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO LISTEN TO PEOPLE! YOU LACK BOUNDARIES! YOU'RE AN ARROGANT, UPPER-CLASS PIECE OF SHIT WHO'S EQUIVALENT TO BONO, ONLY YOU SOUND LIKE THE ADULT FEMALE VERSION OF NAPOLEON DYNAMITE AND YOU NEVER LET ME GET A WORD IN EDGEWISE!!! I CAN DO WHATEVER THE HELL I FUCKING WANT IN MY LIFE, AND WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PLAY VIDEO GAMES IN OUR SPARE TIME FOR OVER AN HOUR!!!!

Really! Dr. Temple Grandin needs a reality check. I mean who likes feeling so anxious that they're like wide predators always constantly panicking and looking for danger. So what if she invented the squeeze machine? There wouldn't be such a thing if disabilities didn't exist! She would be focusing more of her time and energy on other things, especially entertainment. Who is she? A jehovah witness?!? Is that why she dislikes relationships so much? How could someone like her stand being single their entire lives?

Unlike her and many others on the spectrum, I know how to do the right thing. I know how to make the right choices. One day I'm gonna be that person leading the autism community and we're gonna battle this out and educate the entire nation!!!! We're gonna change the perceptions of how the disabled are viewed to educators, family and other professionals! One day, I'm gonna lead an entire movement to help improve their lives and so we can educate others and change the ruptures within the government and other non-profit and profit organizations!

AND THEN I'M GONNA TAKE MYSELF UP TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND LEAD THE NATION!!!!! *pumps fist in midair repeatedly* YEEEAAHHH!!! YEEEAAAHHH!!!!! Afterall, I'm FAR more qualified than Sarah Palin who went to COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

Timelord said...

"Don't you remember threatening to take me to court? Of course you do! Were it not for that though..."

No excuse. You're lucky I didn't have an address for you. Because you never actually got a document - there was no IRL action taken. Therefore, YOU fired the first IRL shot and not me.

"See I heard it was your Father but presumed it to be someone out for a stir. It doesn't matter though right? I mean you have grown into a well-adjusted sensible man regardless. Still, now I am interested......"

And what would you say if I said I was interested in your family's private life? Hmm? You'd tell me to piss off. And for once in my life I agree with you. Your interest only makes you the same level of monster as Best. Well done - for someone who has distanced himself from that sort of BS until now. Rather good piece of character evidence isn't it?

"I am not scared of you Timelord"

Then why pursue me? You're a very bad liar.

Anonymous said...

You're a very bad liar

And *you're* a good one?

Anonymous said...

Ross Lumbus says:

As to the good character evidence, not the slightest idea of what you are saying. If you are trying to indicate that you are suggesting my bringing these allegations up in general terms is worse than I dunno the crapping on that you did on another blog about my lack of wife equating to me having to visit Fyshwick, I don't see it.

Oh yeah Hypocrisy.

In a bit of a crap mood generally after the Gall Bladder surgery and probably would not even bother with you normally Timelord.

Roger Kulp said...

In the first place.The comparison to deafness is a perfect one.Autism and deafness are both serious disabilities,that have a number of different causes.In both cases a very vocal subpopulation, usually those with milder forms of the disablity,who do not have other coexisting conditions believe they speak for EVERYBODY with said disability.

The neurodiversity people can be every bit as intolerant as those they criticize.

The very language they use to define their terms, starting with the word "neurodiversity" itself is unpleasant,and inflammatory.A homeless schizophrenic,who won't take their meds,could make the same argument that you are intolerant of their "neurodiversity".


Aspies are very self-centered people.The infighting on pages like this one,prove this very well. They seem to think everybody is like them.They have built a whole movement on this flawed belief.I would like to see some parents of children with either fragile x ,or Kanner autism the classical sense,who advocate neurodiversity.Please find me some.

The possibility that parents will want to abort a disabled fetus is something that will always be there.You will never eradicate this desire from society.When I see the extreme hardship my disorders,mental and physical has caused my mother,and how it alienated us from our entire family.I can easily see why someone would choose such an option.

Ender said...

First off, do you have a problem with me saying that you should cure a kid should never be cured against his will assuming he can have said will. Basically don't cure a high functioning autistic or an asperger's kid until they are sufficently developed. It seems like too often people are all too happy to cure their little 5-10 year old kids, I just don't agree with that. I have no problems curing a low functioning autistic, but please let aspies get old enough to be old enough to form their opinion before you force a cure on them. According to you they will all want a cure anyway.

Next, there are several parents of autisic kids that advocate for neurodiversity. Generally each and everyone of them is attacked by John Best so just ask him about them. Two I can name right off the top of my head are DJ Saverse's parents and Estee Wolfond. Interestingly enough, both of their kids have been helped enough that they are now able to advocate for themselves.

And just so you know, I don't see why retroactive abortion should be illegal. I mean if its okay to kill someone for being disabled before they are born, and right to sue someone for letting them be born, why would it be wrong to kill them after their born? I mean after all it is a "wrongful life" after all. Are you meaning to advocate that its okay to kill disabled kids for being disabled. John has before, but I was hoping you were better then that.

kit said...

Ender, I am a high functioning autistic and have alot of autistic tendencies and traits.

When I see other aspies who barely have problems, I wonder if either they aren't autistic at all or if maybe I'm not an aspie but HFA.